Posts
I have had accepted for publish two stories on the Literotica.com site. There is a classification of works called “Reluctant/NonConsensual” (click link to see). In these works, the submissive is being forced to do things against their will and normally end up enjoying it. It seems to be a very popular theme. Mr. Rene from the Tamara in Trouble blog has a new, well authored, post concerning things he simply has no interest in. It got me thinking if reactions could be changed through a training plan.
I know that many times, a dominant would require a new submissive to complete a duration of training. During this time, the authority is established and the submissive it taught their role. Since it is a foreign concept to live under, it takes time to adapt to. Having a dominant participate in the transition by obligating a training program is helpful. Tools like humiliation, unquestioned obedience, infliction of pain, sleep deprivation, and many others may be used during a training period. I understand from some that the process never really ends, but levels off from initial shock approaches during the transition.
The question I was considering is if a submissive could be made to enjoy exploitation through a nonconsensual approach. This goes to Skinneristic environmental behavioralism theory, which I understand has all but completely been disregarded by the professional community. We know from history that an oppressed people almost never have their spirit surrendered completely and when authoritarian influences subside, the people find the will to normalize from the coercion they were under. That is sociology though. Down to an individual treatment of skinneristic practices, it too does not carry merit in the professional community.
So, can a submissive man be “made” to enjoy things he already does not posses a propensity for? From my own experience, the answer is yes. In Mr. Rene’s example he professes a strong desire to feel pleasure from recognizing his wife, Tamara, is pleased with him. I can relate to this. In doing so, I complete activities I would otherwise dread doing, but with the pleasure of knowing my wife is pleased with me. Tonight I will do the ironing. Sometimes when I do so, slowly and deliberately, I think of how my wife will enjoy me doing a good job and I often find it sexually arousing to the point of pre-cum. Ironing causing a sexual response? How weird is that?
Now, let us take other exploitation that may be able to use the same process. Let’s say my wife chooses to let me know she would enjoy if I would BLANK. BLANK can be staying chaste, submitting to being spanked, accepting humiliation, or any one of the many options available in the slave trainers toolbox. My wife would apply BLANK into the relationship on a routine basis. I would not enjoy it at first, but over time recognize that she was pleased with me and therefore I would end up learning to enjoy BLANK. This I see is where submissive slave training differs from Skinneristic techniques.
I wanted to put the train of thought into writing to see for myself it I thought it had merit and I think I can say now that I believe it does. A submissive man can be trained to enjoy just about anything, as long as he posses the desire for the pleasure in knowing his dominant is pleased with him. The dominant can use that to form an enjoyment response from just about any activity they choose.
SH
ReplyDeleteI didn't know you were allowed to read erotic fiction, so when I came across this nice story about chaste men a matriarchial society, I refrained from sending it to you. But obviously, you are allowed to read (and even write) erotic stuff, so here it is. Hope you enjoy it:
http://www.eunuch.org/Alpha/G/ea_74633gloria_s.htm
This is a rather complex posting. I don't know much about Skinner (René knows much more about ethology than me), but to me this "slave training" sounds like Pavlovian reinforcement/classical conditioning. - I'm not sure if Pavlovian reinforcment can work against a strong negative stimulus (e.g. pain). I think there would have to be a very, very strong positiv stimulus to overcome that.
ReplyDeleteMs. Tamera,
ReplyDeleteI did not like to iron. I never touched one before, I hated it so much. Now, it is one of the highlights of my week. Weird, but true.
-SH
PS- thx 4 the fiction link. I liked it.
So many self-proclaimed submissive men claim they want to be forced into some kind of behavior, like for instance, wearing female clothing or cuckolding, but when called to the task, chicken out. Then topping from the bottom emerges. Then they start “discussing” the issue.
ReplyDelete“So, can a submissive man be “made” to enjoy things he already does not posses a propensity for?”
I can make a man do whatever i want him to do, whether he’s slave material or not. It’s simply a question of brute force, manipulation, or seduction. No difference with vanilla here.
Within the realm of d/s it doesn’t matter if he would enjoy what i want him to do. He simply must do as i say. That’s the essence of slavery. But from what i’m reading here, and in a zillion other blogs regarding femdom, i’m pretty sure most, if not all, will disagree with me on this. Yes people, whether u like it or not, there’s a huge difference between vanilla femdom and feminine femdom. And then there’s also FLR, FLH, FDH, etc, which i learned is none of those 2, but rather related to mommy-dom.
There’s a silver lining tho. When a man is born a slave, anything nonconsensual in his relation with his owner, soon will be consensual, without any training. No need at all for the insights and practices of Pavlov, Watson, Skinner, Bandura, or any other guru from the patriarchal front, as it all comes natural to him. But then again, a femdom like me, abhors many of the trendy activities of mainstream d/s, and is not seeking to pester her slave, to humiliate him, to degrade him, or make him do things antagonistic to the core of his being! I save that for vanillas who r trespassing my place and/or r in the business of harassing me and my people.
i sure wish my wife could learn from you
DeleteSH,
ReplyDeletewell I don't know, but in my eyes there's a *slight* difference between not wanting to use an iron and not wanting to endure physical pain. Wouldn't you agree?
But anyway: To Tamara and myself any conditioning, manipulating, pressuring etc. is out of discussion. As I said often: I've not the slightest interested in getting "controlled". We both agree that we don't want to "change" the other one into something he/she doesn't want to be. Our D/s relationship is based on the agreement that we just want to discover what feels comfortable to both of us.
(Besides that: "training program" etc. sounds very much like "extra work for the dominant part" - according to our approach, we don't want this either.)
But anything, thanks for your toughts.
rené
Ms. Ayesha,
ReplyDeleteI like what you say concerning if someone is born slave, anything that starts nonconsensual eventually turns consensual. I totally agree and would add that it further turns into a source of pleasure. At least that is my view.
To the rest of your comment, you will find no disagreement from me. I whole heartedly agree and thank you for providing a nugget of truth to the discourse. Since my wife has encouraged me to disagree more liberally, my agreement with your stance is sincere.
-SH
Mr. Rene,
ReplyDeleteThx for the comment. Let me expand on the ironing analogy. I changed from being a person who does not want to do ironing, does not like to do ironing, and had never done ironing before, into one through a desire to do things my wife is pleased with me doing, now enjoys ironing. It was a change in me and something I did not like into something I now like though the desire to do things my wife is pleased with me doing. It was a change in who I am (although a small one). I hope you can see the point I am trying to make though.
Now, let’s replace the word ironing with BLANK and you can see my point. If you are a man who does not like BLANK, fine. I totally understand. I am not sure how to word it from here, but I hope you understand.
I ask you to take a moment to consider and if you wish, do not feel obligated to respond. I will understand if you don’t
-SH
SH,
ReplyDeleteno problem. I think I very well understand, what you want to say. But - as said - in my eyes "BLANK" couldn't be replaced by just any random thing.
You didn't want to iron before - now you like it. The "transition" was of course backed up by your wife's enjoyment about you using the iron. But - don't get me wrong: Learning to use the iron and then indeed using it, isn't harmful (unless you touch the wrong side of the iron, of course). So you "just" have had to overcome a mental barrier - and even this to me seems not that much a problem, since ironing is an absolutely normal action performed by millions of people every day. If you look at it from an objective perspective, it doesn't require a huge amount of overcoming. That it turned out so far, that you now even *like* it, is of course due to the fact that you want to please your wife.
But if I replace "BLANK" by "getting beaten" or "getting branded" or "getting humiliated in public" etc., then the barrier one has to overcome is remarkably higher than in using an iron. Being spanked - at least to me - just *hurts*! I can't imagine you breaking out in tears and screams when touching an iron for the first time ... To me, physical pain is *in no way* enjoyable - it hurts! And although I endure it once in a while, because I see that Tamara enjoys it to spank me, I nevertheless can't enjoy it. And I can't imagine how Tamara could ever show such an amount of enjoyment about it, that my pleasure about making her happy could override the pain.
But - again -, as said: Any manipulation is a no-go to us. We simply don't want to alter the other one.
rené
Rene,
ReplyDeleteYes, I think we are just about arriving at the station now. Let me digress.
You point your readers to a post called “What I Want” and point number three is “You Want Tamara To Be Proud Of You” and equate pleasure to this realization. I can relate to this feeling completely.
Now, before we go way down the tracks here to getting beaten up by your wife on a routine basis, let’s start with a baby step. I find your comment that no manipulation is permitted to be contradictory in light that you subject yourself to being manipulated by your wife through seeking to do things she is proud of you doing. This is a form of manipulation in my view. It is a way you are accepting her changing things you do and would otherwise not do accordingly. Therefore you are being subject to her authority in this way. Another way of saying it is you are her submissive and she is your dominant. She is your loving authority figure. There are many others.
Anyway, as a baby step, let’s say you like what most guys like and shun domestic chores. One day Tamara says she would be proud of you if you started to do more of the chores. You don’t like it at first, but find a weird enjoyment doing chores now, recognizing Tamara would be pleased with you doing them. You never liked chores before, but now you do. A change has happened. Tamara has manipulated you into liking chores. Instead of fast forwarding into BDSM extreme, let’s just leave it at that for now.
I believe a dominant can use this drive to be pleased that submissive posses to have them accept things they otherwise wouldn’t. It is a form of skinneristic behavior modification, but added is the submissive’s drive to be pleased by their dominant allows it to be more successful then otherwise.
-SH
SH,
ReplyDeletewell, ok, let me say that your example is quite good, since in fact I *have been doing* much more household chores on a daily basis since we started our new try (i. e. for more than 5 months now).
You referred to my post, in which I said that I'd like Tamara to be proud of me. Indeed, I do. But in doing these chores I don't make her proud - she just enjoys that I do them now. ("Proud" in the way I meant it, referred to situations, which most likely involve other people. It involves the feeling of "Look, what a wonderful husband I've got. Isn't he just great?")
But, back to the topic: You said that in seeing that Tamara enjoys me doing these chores I "find a weird enjoyment doing chores now". Errr, no. I don't. Unlike you, *doing* these chores doesn't cause me pleasure or even arousal. They are still just chores to me. What I enjoy about the whole thing, is Tamara's smiling face and her acknowledgement. The task itself isn't more enjoyable to me than it was ever before. Making Tamara happy is enjoyable, filling the dishwasher isn't - it's still just a task.
And to conclude: I don't see a smooth connection between the "baby step" and the beating. I still hold that there's quite a remarkable gap between doing houshold chores and getting beaten up. To do the first ones you - maybe - have to overcome a mental barrier (even not a very high one in most cases); in order to come to enjoying painful beatings you have to overcome more than a mental barrier ... you have to override physical reactions that are uncontrollable by your conscious mind.
So I still hold, that "BLANK" can't be filled by any random action with the same ease. Some actions can be easily filled in, others more or less easily, others hardly and again others are simply off limits.
E. g. if you are a follower of the catholic believe and your dominant wants you to enjoy pissing onto a statue of the Virgin Mary, because this would make her/him happy, than I can't imagine that there was a way he/she could bring you to do this action - not to speak of enjoying it. You simply wouldn't do it - regardless whether your dominant would enjoy it or not. It is a taboo to you. If you nevertheless *did* it (to please your dominant), you for sure would suffer from a bad conscience. --- I don't say that getting beaten up is the same, but it is comparable: It also means doing something, that you are not able to enjoy for reasons that aren't controllable by you. In my eyes, there is a big difference between those examples and taking over household-chores or ironing.
rené
Mr. Rene,
ReplyDeleteI am glad we have come to agreement that the principle is sound, but the severity strains credulity, dependent on the given comfort level. I do agree totally.
Now, I would suggest that I too was like you, not enjoying a chore per se, but the appreciation of my wife after the fact. I hope you will accept my experience in this when I say after awhile the two become one and the chore it self becomes enjoyable too. I apologize if I left the impression it was an immediate change. It is not. In my case, it took months. I would imagine every man is different in this.
Now, back to the baby steps and train analogy. I think we made it to the station of consensus and the train can now leave the station. Let’s leave extreme BDSM out of the discourse. Hypothetically, let’s say I am right and after a period of time you find you do actually start to enjoy doing the chores you have agreed to. As the train proceeds down the tracks, that big, bad ravine where the extreme BDSM lies is way down there and no need to get hung up on that now, there are other bridges to cross. Perhaps developing an affinity for giving foot massages.
Anyway, enough said.
BTW, I too have limits to what I would let my wife do to me. As you suggest the taboo. Illegal activity I would have a hard time agreeing to and would likely balk at depending…
-SH
It was already clear to me from the beginning, but now it's beyond a shadow of a doubt: Rene and Tamara r NOT in a d/s relationship. What they have, and r "working" on, is at best called, an attempt to get into a vanilla femdom situation, with emphasis on vanilla.
ReplyDeleteFrom what i see in Cyberspace, there r many individuals and couples like them, trying to come across as if they were into d/s, femdom, or whatever they call it. Maybe they even believe it themselves, lol. And it keeps me wondering: Why do they want it so much? Why don't they simply work on their relationship, and find out how to make it a great one, tailored to their desires, and enjoy it from here to eternity? Why do they need to belong to the d/s world, why is that label so important to them, while even the vanilla variant of it, is something they can't live up to, and is causing them time and again more stress than happiness?
Of cors the answers to my questions r known. There r several explanations. They were and r discussed everywhere. Not in the least to camouflage what’s really going on in the mind of men, and a few females. I won’t go into that right now. But i can’t resist to ask u to ponder for instance why so many males want to wear pampers enforced onto them by their strict mommy-domme (grin).
Ms. Ayesha,
ReplyDeleteAlthough I can completly understand your perspective, I personally refrain from being critical of other's relationships, especially in the formative stages as it is difficult to project how it will evolve.
I hope you have a pleasant evening.
-SH
Diversity is one of the reasons i love and respect the concept of freedom. But, like it is with free speech, democracy, friendship, and yes, femdom, sometimes there r people who believe they can ridicule, caricature, even abuse and corrupt same, under the protection of exactly that what they ridicule, caricature, abuse and corrupt.
ReplyDeleteI will resist this whenever i see fit. In r/l as well as in the virtual world. No matter the consequences, no matter the costs.
Sir, i wish u a soulful and exiting evening as well.
SH,
ReplyDeletewell, so I think we just have to wait whether the experience you made (that doing the chores per se became enjoyable and arousing to you) will occur in my case too.
Until now it doesn't seem so. I do my tasks on a daily basis for more than five months now and till now can't state any change in my attitute towards them. I neither like them nor dislike them - they are completely neutral to me ... just chores.
But thanks anyway. And I promise that, *if* I too will observe the transition you experienced, I certainly will write a posting about it on our blog.
Take care,
rené
I agree with Ayesha, and I don't think that Rene is really a "submissive" in the broader sense of the word. That's not a criticism, just an observation.
ReplyDeleteSurley the point here is that the submissive enjoys the control, whether he likes or dislikes an activity is only going to effect his enjoyment of the control. If he dislikes the activity and as a result this increases his enjoyment of the control, then he is by association begin to welcome the activities that bring him most satisfaction from the feeling of control.
Mr. Rene,
ReplyDeleteI guess I can explain it like this,,…
“Gee, when I finish these dishes, Tamara is going to really be glad I did”
when you feel pleasure at the anticipation of the reward, the act itself is enjoyable via the thoughts of anticipation.
Anyway, as you say, it is a wait and see thing. It happened with me, but you are right, it may simply not with you, but I suspect it will. To me there is not much difference between the anticipation of the reward and the reward itself when it comes to the type of pleasure you describe.
-SH
Mr. @AT,
ReplyDeleteI believe Ms. Ayesha was suggesting his enjoyment is unnecessary and she was directing criticism at Tamara.
I withhold judgment and criticism towards others. I know from my own past that relationships like this go through phases and an initial assessment are more likely then not to disappear in the past as the unique dynamic evolves. I try to instead provide my view and make suggestions in response to comments and posts.
Glad you posted a comment. ;-}
-SH
@AAT
ReplyDelete"I don't think that Rene is really a "submissive" in the broader sense of the word."
This - very well - maybe the case (as I often said in our blog too). And, I don't see it as a criticism at all; no offence taken. It's completely uninportant to us, how that, what I want, or that, what Tamara wants, or the kind of relationship we have is *labeled*.
We use "D/s" and "FLR" just for the reason of convenience - we are well aware that there are much different kinds of D/s and FLR out there.
Those labels mean absolutely nothing to us - we didn't have the slightest problem to avoid "D/s" and "FLR" etc. and instead call our type of relationship a "&$%@*-relationship" (if this were pronouncable).
It is a fact that Tamara has the saying in certain fields of our relationship and over some of my actions (e. g. orgasms) - that's why we don't avoid the "D/s" label at all.
But - as said - it means nothing to us. All we enjoy is the outcome of our new approach to a &$%@*-relationship: Since we started it, we both have been feeling much closer to each other than in the years before, we both are engaging in a journey, that indeed is fascinating to both of us. Our relationship has become even more valuable to us; our intimacy reached a completely new level.
How we should call it, is not only secondary - it is completely unimportant.
rené
From now on, i'll call all pudding steak. Just for convenience reasons. Of cors i couldn't care less, as it doesn't mean anything to me, and consider it completely unimportant.
ReplyDeleteBeing a submisive,I also discovered that ironing gives me a great thrill.
ReplyDeleteI am not married but when an ex girlfriend asked me to do the ironing en femme (this is important for me) it gave me very much the feeling of becoming more female.
Although it is very important to me that she points out where my ironing can be improved or just simply evaluate my work.
Living on my own and doing my own ironing will never give me the same thrill then when someone checks out how well / poorly I performed the ironing.
To go short doing the ironing for someone else and being judged is until now the greatest submisive task for me to do. While sewing comes to a second place.
I consider myself to be an autogenophile.
Hmmmm, i understand now that ironing is femme? Why?
ReplyDeleteMr. Anon,
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ms. Ayesha. Ironing is not a task for women. I think the feeling you feel is not that you are doing a task and made to be a woman, but that you are being directed to do something that you would not normally do by a woman. As a test, what if she asked you to do the ironing, but had to have one hand tied behind your back and anytime you screwed up, you got spanked. I think you would feel the effect of being under the direction of a woman and feel the same pleasure, but more so.
-SH